What the Optimism About Vatican II Was Really About

Meanwhile, John XXIII had announced the Second Vatican Council and thereby reanimated and, for many, intensified even to the point of euphoria the atmosphere of renewal and hope that reigned in the Church and in theology since the end of the First World War despite the perils of the National Socialist era.” – Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in his Milestones Memoirs 1927-1977 page 120.

I can be tempting to see the general enthusiasm for change brought about by Vatican II in a Liberal Conservative divide as portrayed by the media. The “Liberal” view is that the change would open wide doors to be like the world. This is the claim of many when taking about Vatican II.

That enthusiasm was generally present. But we must be careful to note other general trends in society. How could people be hopeful for renewal when World War I and II had crushed the dreams and lives of so many? Humanity in the modern world knew ugliness.

Dr. Larry Chapp made an excellent comment in a recent video on Vatican II. There are two major ways to react to the crisis of the world wars. One could end up in pessimism about humanity and all things. One could also end up in a general optimism that everyone needs to work together and enter into dialogue and form some sort of united plan and vision for humanity moving forward to avoid encountering more wars.

In this framework we can see how the council fathers were enthusiastic about renewal and Ratzinger notes in his memories even though the World Wars had just ended. The Council was doing in religious terms what the secular world was doing by building the United Nations. The Church and many in it were hoping that entering into dialogue with the world and reaching out to it would help create a system where great evils such as the World Wars would be less likely.

The problem was the modern world had little interest in dialoguing with the Catholic Church and in fact was hostile to it more so culturally than at any point. (i.e. at least when you are taking to Pagan’s they still believe in the afterlife and the spiritual realm – modern society stopped doing so)

Hence, we must not impute a general malaise of bad will on the council that is relied on today to score debating points. The texts themselves asked for dialogue and entering into conversation with the world as well as a purification of the interior life of the Church herself.

A second problem was that the pre-Vatican II Church had in a general sense (not every place and person) been forming minds and hearts of the faithful in a legalistic way to follow rules and obligations. When the council lifted some of those rules to allow for more interior and personal initiative, large percentages of the faithful simply through the whole thing out and instead of dialoging with the modern culture with a greater freedom than was allowed previously simply conformed to the culture. (There was no rule against doing this or that being talked about so the general conscience of the time saw no wrong)

To conclude, I want to note that the renewal or the hope of it during Vatican II was well founded on good moral reasons. The malformation in the pre-Vatican II era caused the Church to rely to heavily on rules. This then caused the faithful to be wish-wash when rules were lifted. A Liberal element always present in pre-Vatican II times was then able to take the ship a little to far astray in some areas then the council’s original enthusiasm was all about.

Sr. Lucia Called Vatican II a Holy Council

The simple remembrance of the mysteries in each decade is another radiance of light supporting the burning torch in souls. This is why the devil has moved against it—such a great war. And the worst part is that he has deluded and deceived souls of great responsibility in their position. They are blind men leading blind men. They pretend to base their saying in the [Second Vatican] Council and to not realize that the Holy Council ordered them to preserve all the practices of the Immaculate Virgin Mother of God. The prayer of the Rosary or five decades, is one of the most important, and according to the decrees of the Holy Council and the orders of the Holy Father, it must be maintained…Let us pray, work and sacrifice and trust that finally, “my Immaculate Heart will triumph.” – Sister Lucia to Mother Martins

I have to credit Kevin Symonds for bringing this quotation to light. There are in fact 2 letters of Sister Lucia which reference the Second Vatican Council as the Holy Council.

These quotes not only show that Sister Lucia believed that Vatican II did not call for a lessening in a bad way to the devotional practices to our Lady such as the Rosary, but that the Third Secret of Fatima had nothing to do with Vatican II being evil since she herself calls it Holy.

A quick post but with some great information.

Does Pope Francis Only Quote Post Vatican II Sources

In a video by Timothy Gordon entitled “5 Catholics Debate the Motu and SSPX” about Pope Francis’ recent move on Traditional Latin Masses, apart from a few speakers wrongful attribution of the word wicked to Pope Francis, (not M. Lofton) Eric Sammons had a rather weak criticism against Francis.

Eric makes the claim that Francis does not quote from Church texts from the pre-Vatican II era.

So I did a check. First Francis does quote from Vatican I. Second so what?

It has been about 60 years since Vatican II. How often do Popes really quote from encyclicals or Letters that are older than 60 years? Not often.

If you simply choose a pre-Pope John XXIII Pope and read an encyclical or exhortation at random you will find sometimes that they reach back 70 years sometimes 80 years, but also at times less than 60 years.

The difference is these Pre Vatican II Popes were living in a time when the last major Catholic event happened 400 years ago (Council of Trent) Francis lives in a time when the last major event was 50 years ago. Thus, the non-Francis Popes often have to rely on non-Ecumenical Council texts to back up their thoughts on current world issues. Francis on the other hand has a modern council that talks about modern problems so does not have to reach as far back.

Eric’s criticism about Francis not quoting texts 70 years ago when a lot of other Pope’s never did (and he does quote Vatican II by the way) is unfounded and grasping and weak claims.

Why No V2 Supporters Should Gloat over the Restrictions on the TLM

It was tempting as an avid supporter of Vatican II to go way to far in underlining the fact in Pope Francis’ recent Motu Proprio shows that still and yet again the Magisterium of the Church is telling us in not so many words (as it has constantly said so explicitly) that the future is Vatican II Theology and Liturgy instead of going back to TLM ideas and Liturgy. I waited a while with prayer before making a comment.

I did not do so because the TLM does have a place in a Vatican II era and because that would cause division when that is what Francis wants to avoid.

What I will say though is that Francis is quite clear in saying that when the TLM communities even if they prefer and are successful in using the TLM system to gain converts and be deeply spiritual cannot forget, ignore or even not promote Vatican II concepts. The way forwards is Vatican II for the Church, the Popes are clear on this. If you fit into a niche that is not super enthusiastic for Vatican II that is okay in the Church’s realm. But — this niche can never jeopardize the overall large scale goal of the Church which is Vatican II fruits, goals and projections. What is clear is that the Popes want Vatican II forward thoughts.

If you are constantly telling people Vatican II ideology or Liturgy is evil or wrong, then you have left the church period. If the Vatican II Liturgy or doctrines taught evil or is evil the Holy Spirit has left the Church, its Popes and an Ecumenical Council. Christ was wrong – the Church was not protected. You cause division by doing so.

Nor can you accuse the Pope of being focused on conservative wrong doers instead of liberal ones (a.k.a. Fr. James Martin) because the Motu Proprio was about division. Do liberals cause division? Yes, but not in the same sense as conservatives. The TLM rad-trad ideas alienates people and others by attacking valid spirituality and liturgy. Liberals to be fair – corrupt morals more so than make people leave or alienate them.

What is the way forward?

Simply prayer is my answer. For those in the TLM, a struggle if they desire their lost masses. For those in the TLM that have gone too far right, a realization that they are schismatics due to a rejection of Vatican II because they headed against the Pope. For us in Vatican II style places, prayer for others that are struggling. This prayer will bring us closer and help us learn from eachother.

Catholic Conspiracies After Vatican II

Catholic Conspiracies After Vatican II with Fr. Charles T. Murr and Kevin Symonds – YouTube

In this excellent resource the masonic relationship of Archbishop Bugnini and the Vatican II Liturgy. It takes the stance that Bugnini was a Masson – hence he was ‘promoted’ by Pope Saint Paul VI to Iran.

It also discusses how Pope Saint Paul VI had a complete review of the Vatican Employees and Clergy performed to determine if there were questionable influences. Paul VI’s famous quote about the smoke of Satan is arguable about this investigation.

Why This Canada Day Vatican II Thinking (Religious Liberty, Respecting Cultures, Evangelize From Within) Gives Hope When Previous Catholic Mindsets Failed and Resulted in Residential Schools (Religious Restriction, Destroying Cultures, Evangelizing by Force)

As a Canadian Catholic I have much to think about this Canada day over the discovery of more unmarked graves of children from residential schools run by Catholic missionaries and churches.

Compared to other countries Canada has developed a rather spotless history compared to most western countries. Slavery and Civil War blackens the States, and Colonialism, Imperialism, Exploitations, Slavery, and dozens of medieval and modern crimes of European countries blacken their histories even darker. Whereas Europeans largely reduced their neighbors to rubbles in earlier times along with all the pillage and plunder involved, North America was developed by less by conquest of the sword as conquest of culture, technology and smaller military engagements.

Residential schools are a dark spot on Canadian history and the Canadian Catholic Church had a part to play in them. I pray for this crime against so many people.

I thinking about all the stupidity that must have been involved in committing these crimes it started to make me feel sadder even more about the state of the Church in Canada. (people burning Churches in Canada is a result of popular hatred)

I am not going to get into the details of it all here, but offer one glimpse of hope for the Church in Vatican II.

Vatican II in its declaration of religious liberty, in its desire to reach out to the culture and its desire to evangelize the culture from within has such a great promise to it!

Vatican II’s mindset is such that something like residential schools would be out of the question. In fact, Vatican II’s mindset would promote something the opposite! Going out understanding a culture, bringing Christ to it and become the preserver of its cultural uniqueness.

Vatican II took a great stride forward from the mentality of Catholicism that got swept up with a Imperial Europe which sought to control populations overseas and ‘bring civilization’ with them. Now Catholicism never officially endorsed this mindset, the fact is sometimes its people did. Catholics have sought to force a European Catholicism upon others rather than a Catholicism suited for the people which takes their best and brings it to Christ.

That is what gives me hope — If my ancestors in Canada thought that getting ride of a culture and took kids away to places where some would die of TB was justified to bring them a European idea set —Vatican II clearly shows us that it is Christ’s was to respect the culture of others, respect their religious liberty and evangelize from within instead.

The flight of the doctrinal butterfly — Where Peter Is

Neither Pope Francis’s Magisterium, nor the Second Vatican Council’s documents, can be interpreted through a proper hermeneutic of continuity if one does not understand the concept of “doctrinal development.” Those who criticize those teachings, however, will often try to invalidate… The post The flight of the doctrinal butterfly appeared first on Where Peter Is.

The flight of the doctrinal butterfly — Where Peter Is

List of Locations Saints are Referenced in Vatican II: All 16 Documents

List of All locations where Vatican II uses in-text Saint references. (this does not included places where texts are referenced but the saint names are not used in the text but instead included as a footnote/endnote – the footnoted references are in the hundreds) The focus is on Saints in the popular sense. For example, people who were not saints at the writing of Vatican II are not included. (Pope Saint Paul VI, Pope Saint John XXIII) Additionally, persons of the bible such as David who are not usually referred to as saints in writing but are saints in the proper sense according to the Church are not included in the list. Mary also was excluded, although a saint her references deserve a separate category. (you see see the list of her references in Vatican II here) The idea was to focus on the points were Vatican II specifically quoted people or brought their witness to bear in which the person’s sainthood was a reason for their reference. (For example to show forth a link with tradition or the witness of the faithful)

For other Lists See – Mary Quotes, Marriage Quotes, Development/Modern Culture Quotes, List of Where Vatican II says its teaching, Non Universal Salvation Quotes and Eucharist Quotes

Lumen Gentium #20 “Thus, as St. Irenaeus testifies, through those who were appointed bishops by the apostles, and through their successors down in our own time, the apostolic tradition is manifested and preserved.”

Lumen Gentium #22 “Just as in the Gospel, the Lord so disposing, St. Peter and the other apostles constitute one apostolic college, so in a similar way the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are joined together.”

Lumen Gentium #32St. Augustine puts this very beautifully when he says: “What I am for you terrifies me; what I am with you consoles me. For you I am a bishop; but with you I am a Christian. The former is a duty; the latter a grace. The former is a danger; the latter, salvation””

Lumen Gentium #56 “For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “the Mother of the living,” and still more often they say: “death through Eve, life through Mary.””

Lumen Gentium #63 “As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ.”

Dei Verbum #1 “Hearing the word of God with reverence and proclaiming it with faith, the sacred synod takes its direction from these words of St. John: “We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:2-3). “

Dei Verbum #20 ” Besides the four Gospels, the canon of the New Testament also contains the epistles of St. Paul and other apostolic writings, composed under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by which, according to the wise plan of God, those matters which concern Christ the Lord are confirmed, His true teaching is more and more fully stated, the saving power of the divine work of Christ is preached, the story is told of the beginnings of the Church and its marvelous growth, and its glorious fulfillment is foretold.”

Unitatis Redintegratio #7St. Paul says: “I, therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace”.”

Unitatis Redintegratio #7 “The words of St. John hold good about sins against unity: “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us”.”

Sacrosanctum Concilium #112 “Holy Scripture, indeed, has bestowed praise upon sacred song, and the same may be said of the fathers of the Church and of the Roman pontiffs who in recent times, led by St. Pius X, have explained more precisely the ministerial function supplied by sacred music in the service of the Lord.”

Sacrosanctum Concilium #117 “The typical edition of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; and a more critical edition is to be prepared of those books already published since the restoration by St. Pius X.”

Orientalium Ecclesiarium #3 “These individual Churches, whether of the East or the West, although they differ somewhat among themselves in rite (to use the current phrase), that is, in liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and spiritual heritage, are, nevertheless, each as much as the others, entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman Pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in primacy over the universal Church. “

Presbyterorum Ordinis #5 “In administering all sacraments, as St. Ignatius Martyr has borne witness from the early days of the Church, priests by various titles are bound together hierarchically with the bishop. And so in a certain way they make him present in every congregation.”

Presbyterorum Ordinis #12 “Although divine grace could use unworthy ministers to effect the work of salvation, yet for the most part God chooses, to show forth his wonders, those who are more open to the power and direction of the Holy Spirit, and who can by reason of their close union with Christ and their holiness of life say with St. Paul: “And yet I am alive; or rather, not I; it is Christ that lives in me” (Gal 2:20).”

Presbyterorum Ordinis #13 “As St. Paul wrote to Timothy, “Let this be thy study, these thy employments, so that all may see how well thou doest.”

Optatam Totius #9 “They should learn to take part with a generous heart in the life of the whole Church in accord with what St. Augustine wrote: “to the extent that one loves the Church of Christ, to that extent does he possess the Holy Spirit.” “

Optatam Totius #16 “Next, in order that they may illumine the mysteries of salvation as completely as possible, the students should learn to penetrate them more deeply with the help of speculation, under the guidance of St. Thomas, and to perceive their interconnections. “

Gravissimum Educationis #10 ” In those schools dependent on her she intends that by their very constitution individual subjects be pursued according to their own principles, method, and liberty of scientific inquiry, in such a way that an ever deeper understanding in these fields may be obtained and that, as questions that are new and current are raised and investigations carefully made according to the example of the doctors of the Church and especially of St. Thomas Aquinas, there may be a deeper realization of the harmony of faith and science. “

Chesterton – “The Napoleon of Notting Hill”: and Where Magic and Poems Come From in the Liturgy

I did not find The Napoleon of Notting Hill by Chesterton to be my favorite novel. There were several long winded and over done passages in my opinion, but that being said – the overall twist that the novel offers were some of the best ever written.

I don’t want to give any of the plot away because that would ruin the fun of the twists for anyone how desires to read this novel, yet I will point out some of the lessons in the masterpiece by Chesterton.

The general idea can be summed up as follows: A humoristic King enacts a whole series of new ways of life simply to have some fun. A young man takes them seriously and ends up starting a series of events that influences the beliefs and attitudes of others towards the new laws through which they also start to take them seriously.

There were always be those who resist new things because they are unaccustomed to them even if those things are more ancient and traditional than the current habits that they have. That was the joke of the King, to take medieval customs and bring them to modern London. Yet, to a young man the new customs can quickly become the only thing they have ever known and so naturally are deeply attached to them even as the older generation does not care for them. He was willing to fit for them and made the elders fit back, in the energy expended by themselves and the young man the elders are converted.

That is becoming the irony of Vatican II, the Vatican II Liturgy is arguable more Apostolic-Roman and Biblically based than the Liturgy of the Trent era. Currently there is a whole generation of young people that only know the Vatican II Liturgy. To claim that we should go back to Trent Style Liturgy in Latin is to cause another disruption to the minds of the faithful that the Vatican II change in Liturgy caused. Do we think the change would go any better? So much of habit (and its influence on faith) is not based upon anything other than repetition and expectation rather than any evaluation of what is truly a better Liturgy or way of singing. A change back would cause a disruption too and then we would have people make the same clown mass claims to the Tridentine mass.

To think that the Tridentine mass is better than the Vatican II one is like the King in Chesterton’s novel. It is as if someone is trying to trick us and play a joke by changing all the rules simply to go back in time. What the young man shows us, is that the real flavor or greatness in any system is the magic and effort we place into it. It takes great people to influence others to take it seriously. That’s the key not the rules but the poetically and purposeful attention that only true belief brings which is only fostered but never created by human works.

If we want great Church Liturgy what the goal or focus should be is not the laws or customs or form but the love and devotion and high ideal which we go into it with – like the young Napoleon of Notting – Nothing Hill – who was still great by his love for the Nothing Hill.

(and yes the Liturgy is not nothing – its Christ present to us so it will be a lot easier for us)

Acceptation Pacifique Universelle : réponse aux objections — + Archidiacre +

Réfutation des objections faites contre la doctrine de l’Acceptation Pacifique Universelle d’un pape, qui prouve avec certitude sa légitimité.

Acceptation Pacifique Universelle : réponse aux objections — + Archidiacre +

This article (which the Edge Browser can translate into English) goes over the following claims against the universal and peaceful acceptance of a Pope.

Summary of objections and What the Article Gives Responses to

After explaining the need for this doctrine, we will respond to various objections:

  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance is not a consensus among theologians.”
  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance is only a theological opinion.”
  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance concerns the whole Church, not just the bishops, and lay people have refused the legitimacy of John XXIII.”
  • “We sedevacantists did not exist before the promulgation of the heresies of Vatican II, and we had no reason to exist since no heresy has been defined.”
  • “During the vacancy of the See of Peter, the Church cannot teach dogmatic facts. It cannot therefore teach that a man has been legitimately elected and holds supreme authority. »
  • “Even if the bishops do not consider us Catholic, they are not infallible, and we still belong to their government and are subject to them.”
  • “Universal Pacific Acceptance only guarantees the legitimacy of the election of the chosen one, not that he is truly and legitimately Pope and Head of the Universal Church.”
  • “The bull Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio contradicts the doctrine of Universal Pacific Acceptance.”
  • “The antipopes Constantine II and Christophore were universally accepted by all bishops.”
  • “The election of universally accepted Popes were deemed null and void.”
  • “Theologians disobeyed John XXIII, so he did not benefit from Universal Pacific Acceptance.”
  • “Bishops disobeyed, and even doubted the legitimacy of Paul VI, so he did not benefit from peaceful and universal acceptance.”