Vatican II and the Franciscan Thesis

The Franciscan Thesis is that Mary was predestined to be Mother of God in one and the same decree with Christ’s Incarnation and the Absolute Primacy of the Incarnation. The absolute primacy of the Incarnation is the view that Christ’s Incarnation was planed to occur with or without Adam’s sins and the entire creation was created in view to Christ himself. This contrasts with St. Thomas Aquinas’ view that Christ’s Incarnation was due to the fact that Adam sinned from which is derived the necessary fault sung in the Easter Liturgy.

Video – Msgr. Calkins – Franciscan Thesis, Fehlner and the Magisterium – CONF 306 | AirMaria.com AirMaria.com (The list to follow is from the Video)

Vatican II specifically furthered the magisterial authority of this thesis to the point where we can no longer specifically call it a thesis but something taught by the church at least on a serious level but not infallibly. Although, this thesis entered into the magisterium before Vatican II one may see by the list that it is since Vatican II and Vatican II itself that the thesis has gained full force. The list below from the video shows the most important texts from the magisterium that support the thesis.

Confirmation of Franciscan Thesis in the Magesterium (13:35)

Since Ineffabilis Deus many confirmations by Magisterium, so no longer a thesis. Here are Fifteen:

1 – Pius XII – 1950 Munificentissimus Deus No. 40 – Assumption – One and same decree

next Four are in Vatican II Documents

2 – Lumen Gentium (LG) No. 53 Mary redeemed by merits of Son and united to Him,

3- LG 56 incarnation preceded by acceptance of her who is predestined to be Mother of God,

4 – LG 61 predestined from eternity

5 – Vat II Sacrosanctum Concilium No. 103 inseparable bond in salvation

6 – Paul VI – Professio Fidei – Mary Joined by indissoluble bond to incarnation and redemption.

7 – Paul VI – May 30, 1973 General Audience – Mary’s Human Cooperation predestined but free cooperation with her Son. –

8 – Paul VI – Marialis Cultus No. 25 – one single decree

9 – John Paul II – Redemptoris Mater (RM) – 25 March. no.8 With Son, Father a has Chosen her and thus united to Christ. Making use of wisdom texts referring primarily to Christ but understood early as pertaining to Mary

JPII – RM 9 predestination of Mary, Full of Grace because predestined

Fr. Peter. Christ is redemptive as well as saving, Mary preservative

JPII – RM 10 from first moment belonged to Christ, she got life from Christ but give life to Christ as Mother.

10 – JPII – General Audience Nov 23, 1988 [In the video he says 1998] – In this gift made to John and to all of us. Mary is here center of salvation history entirely one with Him, contemplated, predestined and situated together at the center of salvation history.

11 – JPII – Dies Domini no. 79 1998 – Holy Church venerates Mary in union with Christ, indissoluble bond. Quoted from SC 103

12 – JPII – Dec 8 2004 – Homily for Immaculate Conception – Predestination Mary is linked to Christ’s and ours. Mary is a sign of all our salvation, links to Protoevangelicum Gen 3:15.

JPII – Many other texts on theme of Calvary joint suffering of Mary and Jesus is a major theme of JPII’s pontificate.

13 – Benedict XVI – Dec 8, 2006  Spanish Steps – Full of Grace, predestined to be mother of the Redeemer and associated with salvation. –

37:00

14 – BXVI – Angelus Address 2007 Aug 15 – closely united to divine son triumphing over sin and death one and the same decree.

Pius XII – One and the same decree

15 – BXVI – 7 Sept 2008 Homily at Shrine of Our Lady of Bonaria. Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy – Predestination of Mary is inscribed in the predestination of Jesus. The “here I am” of Mary reflected in that of Jesus, and His disciples.

Vatican II and Non-Universal Salvation Quotes

This post like my other Vatican II posts on Mary Quotes, Marriage Quotes, Development/Modern Culture Quotes, List of Where Vatican II says its teaching and Eucharist Quotes lists places, the large majority but not exhaustive where Vatican II speaks of salvation as being non-universal. It is often claimed that Vatican II brought about a sort of everyone is saved mentality because it recognized that there is shades of truth existent in other religions and that they can be saved if they follow their consciences with invincible ignorance (LG 16). As we will see LG 16 even shows us that Vatican II did not mean that we don’t have to try to establish the Church everywhere. Evil, the Devil and woes exist in Vatican II mindset. Look at the following;

Lumen Gentium #5 “The Miracles of Jesus also confirm that the Kingdom has already arrived on earth: “If I cast out devils by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you””

Lumen Gentium #9 “So it is that that messianic people, although it does not actually include all men, and at times may look like a small flock, is nonetheless a lasting and sure seed of unity, hope and salvation for the whole human race.”

Lumen Gentium #16 “But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

Lumen Gentium #17 “Wherefore she makes the words of the Apostle her own: “Woe to me, if I do not preach the Gospel“, and continues unceasingly to send heralds of the Gospel until such time as the infant churches are fully established and can themselves continue the work of evangelizing. “

Lumen Gentium #48 “We strive therefore to please God in all things and we put on the armor of God, that we may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil and resist in the evil day. Since however we know not the day nor the hour, on Our Lord’s advice we must be constantly vigilant so that, having finished the course of our earthly life, we may merit to enter into the marriage feast with Him and to be numbered among the blessed and that we may not be ordered to go into eternal fire like the wicked and slothful servant, into the exterior darkness where “there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth“. For before we reign with Christ in glory, all of us will be made manifest “before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, according to his works, whether good or evil” and at the end of the world “they who have done good shall come forth unto resurrection of life; but those who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment”. Reckoning therefore that “the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come that will be revealed in us”, strong in faith we look for the “blessed hope and the glorious coming of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” “who will refashion the body of our lowliness, conforming it to the body of His glory, and who will come “to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed”.”

Gaudium et Spes #22 “Pressing upon the Christian to be sure, are the need and the duty to battle against evil through manifold tribulations and even to suffer death. But, linked with the paschal mystery and patterned on the dying Christ, he will hasten forward to resurrection in the strength which comes from hope.”

Gaudium et Spes #25 “But at a deeper level they flow from man’s pride and selfishness, which contaminate even the social sphere. When the structure of affairs is flawed by the consequences of sin, man, already born with a bent toward evil, finds there new inducements to sin, which cannot be overcome without strenuous efforts and the assistance of grace.

Ad Gentes #5 “Since this mission goes on and in the course of history unfolds the mission of Christ Himself, who was sent to preach the Gospel to the poor, the Church, prompted by the Holy Spirit, must walk in the same path on which Christ walked: a path of poverty and obedience, of service and self – sacrifice to the death, from which death He came forth a victor by His resurrection. For thus did all the Apostles walk in hope, and by many trials and sufferings they filled up those things wanting to the Passion of Christ for His body which is the Church (cf. Col. 1:24). For often, the blood of Christians was like a seed.”

Ad Gentes #9 “By the preaching of the word and by the celebration of the sacraments, the center and summit of which is the most holy Eucharist, He brings about the presence of Christ, the author of salvation. But whatever truth and grace are to be found among the nations, as a sort of secret presence of God, He frees from all taint of evil and restores to Christ its maker, who overthrows the devil’s domain and wards off the manifold malice of vice

Apostolicam Actuositatem #3 “On all Christians therefore is laid the preeminent responsibility of working to make the divine message of salvation known and accepted by all men throughout the world.

Optatam Totius #20 ” and to help the needs of the whole Church, prepared in spirit to preach the Gospel everywhere.

Inter Mirifica #2 “The Church recognizes, too, that men can employ these media contrary to the plan of the Creator and to their own loss. Indeed, the Church experiences maternal grief at the harm all too often done to society by their evil use. Hence, this sacred Synod, attentive to the watchful concern manifested by the Supreme Pontiffs and Bishops in a matter of such great importance, judges it to be its duty to treat of the principal questions linked with the media of social communication. It trusts, moreover, that the teaching and regulations it thus sets forth will serve to promote, not only the eternal welfare of Christians, but also the progress of all mankind.”

Inter Mirifica #7 “Nevertheless, such presentations ought always to be subject to moral restraint, lest they work to the harm rather than the benefit of souls, particularly when there is question of treating matters which deserve reverent handling or which, given the baneful effect of original sin in men, could quite readily arouse base desires in them.”

Inter Mirifica #11 “It is quite evident what gravely important responsibilities they have in the present day when they are in a position to lead the human race to good or to evil by informing or arousing mankind.

1917 Code of Cannon Law #1324 and 1983 Code of Cannon Law #754 – The Faithful Must Observe What is set Forth in Constitutions and Decrees (Like most Document Produced by Vatican II)

Canon 754 in the current 1983 code of canon law runs as follows. “All the Christian Faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

This canon was not made up by Vatican II, it is a simply rephrasing of the already existing canon 1324 in the 1917 code. This canon covers texts like the 1907 Lamentabili – on the errors of the modernists because it was a decree from the Congregation of the Holy Office. It also covers texts from Vatican I such as the dogmatic constitutions Dei Filius on the Catholic faith and Pastor Aeternus on the Church of Christ. More recently, it covers the dogmatic constitutions of Vatican II – Sacrosanctum Concilium on the sacred liturgy, Lumen Gentium on the Church, Dei Verbum on divine revelation and Gaudium et Spes on the Church in the modern world. It also covers the list of Vatican II’s decrees like on ecumenism, on the pastoral office of the bishop, on the apostolate of the laity ….

What other insights does this offer? We may note that if we were to take the 1907 text on the errors of modernists seriously and it was from the Congregation of the Holy Office, we should take texts from Vatican II directly promulgated by the Popes in a sacred ecumenical council. This is suggested by the last part of the canon – particularly those which the Roman Pontiff .. puts forth.

One may object that Vatican II did not teach anything. I refer that objection to my list of placed were Vatican II uses teaching language http://defendingvatican2.ca/2021/02/20/locations-list-where-vatican-ii-says-it-is-teaching-the-faithful-not-just-pastoral/

We should keep in mind that not all teaching has to be made ex-cathedra and in solemn language. Vatican II does show several instances of serious teaching language moments even if they are not using the same formulas as was custom in times past. The names of the texts themselves – dogmatic constitution seem to lend themselves to the idea that something is being taught or laid out.

Fruits of Vatican II Part 3- Liturgy -Marriage as Covenant not Contract – Communal Penance – Restored Catechumenate

The Second Vatican Council devoted paragraphs 48 to 58 of its Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World to marriage…. Its teaching marked a watershed in the Church’s understanding of marriage. Avoiding the familiar term ‘contract’ the council consistently spoke of marriage as a ‘covenant.” (New Commentary on the Code of Cannon Law, John P. Beal)

Why is this important? If we pick up Casti Connubii (on Chaste Marriage) probably the most authoritative text on marriage before the Council by Pope Pius XI in 1930 we will see the term contract used 22 times. Marriage is described as a contract. The word covenant never appears in the whole text. Vatican II was successfully able to point out that marriage is a covenant so in tune with the covenants God has made with his people. The marriage feast of the lamb and the Church at the end of times (Rev. Ch 21) is the consummation of an everlasting covenant. This is an important teaching of Vatican II, especially in our times when so many people enter into non-sacrament contracts instead of covenant relationships. Vatican II’s teaching helped pave the way forward for a proper and more dignified understanding of marriage.

The catechumenate, a historic and fundamental way for prospect believers to enter the faith through stages and rites including minor exorcisms and increased participation in the liturgy was removed from practice after the council of Trent and restored by Vatican II.

The catechumenate, as a period of several months or sometimes even years of formation for entering into the Christian community, dates from the pre-Nicene period of the Church’s history. In 1614, after the Council of Trent, Paul V issued the Rituale Romanum, which contained the rite of adult baptism. This rite did contain the various liturgical elements of different stages of Christian formation but all combined into the one liturgical service. Consequently, the catechumenate as such fell into desuetude. At the request of various local ordinaries especially from mission territories, John XXIII, by a decree of the Congregation of Rites on April 16, 1962, approved an Order of Baptism of Adults according to seven stages of the catechumenate.” Vatican II in its Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy cemented the catechumenate into its reforms and Church practice after that. (New Commentary on the Code of Cannon Law, Micheal A. O’Reilly)

Reforms to the sacrament of penance were also fruits of Vatican II. All seven sacraments have a social and ecclesial nature. It was recognized by Vatican II that penance in particular needed reforms to better show forth this nature. Hence, the liturgical reforms from Vatican II included the creation of a communal penance celebration. Although distinct from the sacrament itself, these parish type gatherings are now very typically in most parishes were they are used for yearly Lenten and Advent confessions. Everyone gathers at the parish, the scriptures are read, a homily is given and some communal prayers are said. Next, individual confessions are heard. This very effectively restored the idea that sin is communal and that even confession has an ecclesial and social dimension.

Fruits of Vatican II Part 2 – New Evangelization, Mary as Mediatrix

A great sample. Fruit of Vatican II – it allowed for a beauty apologetics to be able to shine, instead of fortress mindsets. (although it was partially hijacked) – The New Evangelization is a fruit of Vatican II

“The Council Fathers knew that “fortress Catholicism” was harming the Church and fostering a culture of drab ugliness owing to the boring nature of its insularity from all things “modern.”  They may not have always gotten the answers right but they were at least willing, finally, to pose the question of modernity to the Church in order for the Church to share the riches of the Gospel with a greatly changed and desperately lonely world.  The tragedy, of course, is that this conciliar initiative to repristinate the Church, to find the hidden lost gems of the Tradition hidden under the palimpsest of neo-scholastic verbiage, was hijacked by a different set of vulgarians intent on replacing the beauty of the Church’s patrimony with a crass, and false, egalitarianism that equated the “tastes” of the popular culture of modernity with “the spirit of the Council.”  Indeed, under the guise of liturgical renewal and increased lay participation, they began to assert that the very insistence on high-end beauty in the Church is a form of reactionary and elitist “triumphalism.”

But if you read the Council documents themselves the exact opposite of this view is put forward.  How and why those documents came to be ignored and the renewal called for by the Council derailed is a subject for another day.  Suffice it to say for now that anyone who wants to blame the Council for being the chief cause of what came after is guilty of some extremely sloppy thinking devoid of real sociological data.  It is a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious thinking that reigns supreme these days in traditionalist circles and it needs to be challenged.  Steven Bullivant’s recent book called “Mass Exodus” is a good place to start that challenge since he offers a wealth of real data on the multi-focal causes of the post conciliar disaffiliation from the Church by so many.” In Defense of Vatican II: Beauty Will Save the World. – Gaudium et Spes 22

Another Great Fruit of Vatican II is Mary!!

This is the claim: That Vatican II has the most complete treatment of Our Lady of any Ecumenical Council! And, this is just what Dr. Miravalle shows so well.

Check out a summary of his videos from airmaria.com.

Dr. Miravalle explains that the Second Vatican Council’s doctrine on Mary is possibly the most complete treatment of Our Lady in any Ecumenical Council since the origins of the Church.  In this video and the following two, he intends to show where the Council points to for authentic Marian doctrinal development

You can check out the videos from airmaria.com Linked Here. I highly recommend this series of videos. They are great in explaining Vatican II’s Marian content. Also if you have a Copy of 33 Days to Morning Glory – go check out how Fr. Gaitley starts and ends with Vatican II content — not by chance.

We can note that the best magisterial text to look at for support of the use of the term Mediatrix is actually Lumen Gentium #62. Vatican II, although not speaking dogmatically here, does make the term normative and bring it to light in a way not previously done by councils.

The content of Vatican II Lumen Gentium specifically on Mary as Mediatrix will prepare the way for the a possible new Marian dogma on co-redemption and Mary being a mediatrix of grace for Christ.

Mary quotes in V2 http://defendingvatican2.ca/2020/10/09/vatican-ii-mary-quotes/

In Defense of Vatican II: Beauty Will Save the World. — Gaudium et Spes 22

Dr. Larry Chapp James Matthew Wilson and Bishop Robert Barron. Two Champions of Beauty One of the things I have long pondered is why it is that people fall away from the faith.  Obviously, they do so for a variety of reasons so I will not attempt a “one size fits all” answer to that complex […]

In Defense of Vatican II: Beauty Will Save the World. — Gaudium et Spes

A great sample. Fruit of Vatican II – it allowed for a beauty apologetics to be able to shine, instead of fortress mindsets. (although it was partially hijacked) – The New Evangelization is a fruit of Vatican II

“The Council Fathers knew that “fortress Catholicism” was harming the Church and fostering a culture of drab ugliness owing to the boring nature of its insularity from all things “modern.”  They may not have always gotten the answers right but they were at least willing, finally, to pose the question of modernity to the Church in order for the Church to share the riches of the Gospel with a greatly changed and desperately lonely world.  The tragedy, of course, is that this conciliar initiative to repristinate the Church, to find the hidden lost gems of the Tradition hidden under the palimpsest of neo-scholastic verbiage, was hijacked by a different set of vulgarians intent on replacing the beauty of the Church’s patrimony with a crass, and false, egalitarianism that equated the “tastes” of the popular culture of modernity with “the spirit of the Council.”  Indeed, under the guise of liturgical renewal and increased lay participation, they began to assert that the very insistence on high-end beauty in the Church is a form of reactionary and elitist “triumphalism.”

But if you read the Council documents themselves the exact opposite of this view is put forward.  How and why those documents came to be ignored and the renewal called for by the Council derailed is a subject for another day.  Suffice it to say for now that anyone who wants to blame the Council for being the chief cause of what came after is guilty of some extremely sloppy thinking devoid of real sociological data.  It is a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious thinking that reigns supreme these days in traditionalist circles and it needs to be challenged.  Steven Bullivant’s recent book called “Mass Exodus” is a good place to start that challenge since he offers a wealth of real data on the multi-focal causes of the post conciliar disaffiliation from the Church by so many.”

Historical Fruits of Vatican II Part 1 – Retention, Lay Groups and More Scripture

In Mass Exodus by Stephen Bullivant, several studies in America and Great Britian show that Catholic retention of its followers was higher other than religious group in the post Vatican II era. It was better than Lutherans, Anglicans, Pentecostals and many others. The book does an excellent statistical study of the reason why people left and when. Stephen notes that “Let us be clear here. Even had there been no Council, no deep and rapid liturgical reforms ….. Catholicism would have had a fairly torrid time of the past half century. As has been shown, ‘leakage’ was already a recognized and worried about .. in the 1940s and 1950s.” He details how Humanae Vitae (which alone may have caused most to leave) rocked the boat, urbanization rocked the boat, the sexual revolution, clerical abuse (which alone may have caused most to leave), and several other large scale non-Vatican II problems made many people leave. In fact, he claims that the Church Fathers at Vatican II should have done better because several already knew and had done studies to show that people were leaving the faith. As a result, he claims that Vatican II along with other secular trends (not one or the other) is to blame for not retaining more people.

On the other hand others do not blame Vatican II because the history of the last 50 years is so complex it really is hard to say what Vatican II’s role really was.

“But it is not quite clear that Vatican II failed because it did not stem the tide of disaffiliation. It is more likely that the Council fathers did not even perceive the scope of disaffiliation on the horizon, the social changes that were to sweep Europe and the United States. And it is possible—although sociologically impossible to prove—that it is the post-conciliar church alone that will have the resources to respond to the real crisis, the one that the Council fathers could not have recognized.” Review: Why did so many Catholics leave after Vatican II? | America Magazine

The graphs below show that Africa had an increase in Catholic but also Christian population since Vatican II. Yet, because other Christian groups increased it could not just be because of Vatican II. What we can say though is that Vatican II did not stop the increase!! (So maybe it did not cause the decrease in the west???)

Vatican II with Paul VI did allow for the Church to develop non-Italian European leaders. It has only been post Vatican II were we can truly say the church leadership represents all peoples. This is one of Vatican II fruits. Before Vatican II, the majority of Popes, the majority of cardinals were all Italian. Vatican II paved the way for this to change.

See the source image

Africa – Our Christian World (dickslikker.org)

“The Word on Fire Vatican II Collection” from Bishop BarronMajor Fruit of Vatican II -the Role of the Laity. How many lay associations can you name or have impacted the Church! Opus Dei is a lay group! Communion and Liberation is a lay group! the list is long.

More Scripture! Fruit of Vatican II. Vatican II greatly increased the diversity of scripture read during mass compared to the old rites. Did the pre-Vatican II Mass really have more Scripture than now? – PrayTellBlog (Plus Dei Verbum has some excellent teaching on Divine authorship that have deeply influenced and clarified Scriptural theology)

Timothy Gordon Vatican II Indefectibility with Michael Lofton

Vatican 2 Indefectibility w/ Michael Lofton – YouTube

Another great video by two Latin Mass Catholic showing how all ecumenical council including Vatican II are indefectible.

Just getting this resource out their!

The Pope, Even if Solomon, Could not Please all his Dissenters

I was reading an older book written during the first years of Pope Saint John XIII’s pontificate. The writer was commenting on how hard it will be for the new Pope to reconcile all the world’s many problems including the Soviets and a spread of communism to many countries around the world tied to a promise of economic development.

She (The Church) has wanted civil rights and political liberty accorded to all peoples ready for it, but has felt a constraint in pushing it forcefully lest she seriously offend her own daughter nations and bring on a greater harm to her own freedom and well-being. Pope John will have to be a Solomon to decide on the better course. Is a bird in the hand worth two in the bush? The hordes in Asia and Africa are the potential Catholic peoples of the future. They must have assurance that the Church is their friend by her pushing ardently for their civil rights. Otherwise they would listen to the siren voice of the Soviets. The Church offers them the true faith, the greater good, but humanly they like the antipasto before the main dish of a bit of rice or the appetizing cocktail of civil rights.” (Pope John XXIII His Life and Character by Paul Christopher Perrotta page 213)

The problem lies in the fact that civil right movements in themselves sometimes got tied up into things that the Church could not whole heartily accept even if most of the message was dear to her heart. (We can think of the Black Lives Matter Protests today – most of the message is good and the Church would love to help, but the parts about destroying a Father-Mother-Child family system and more access to Abortion the Church must whole heartily reject) This happens throughout history and in most important themes in world history. Its not black and white, good or bad. The various movements are not perfect and never ideal, they are mixed.

Hence, when we view Vatican II or its formative years and the following implementation, we have to hold it to that standard. There was so much going on! Communism was still real, Asia and Africa cried for further integration with Europe in terms of Church leadership, the sexual revolution, and drastic changes in the way most lived their lives due to modernization of technology and urbanization along with an increase in general education. The Popes needed to make big changes or risk becoming irrelevant. The problem is some of the choices were Solomon type problems. If we remember the story about the two women and the baby. One whom was the real mother and whom who was not went to Solomon to settle the matter. The fake mother switched her dead child with the living one. Thus, when Solomon said to split the baby in two, the real mother was not okay with that, but the fake mother was. The problem was solved but one mother went away childness nonetheless. Its the same here. Perhaps some parts of the world were hanging onto a system that needed to be re-aligned with the faith (The created culture and system of piety was dictating the faith instead of the faith dictating the culture and systems of piety – perhaps to some degree). When the Council and the Popes sought to change this not everyone was going to be pleased. One woman would have her child restored and the other left with not so much. Solomon answers don’t always mean everyone is pleased. They simply mean they are right in God’s eyes. The world is even more Global now, more complex than ever before. Hence, I think we need to give the Popes some credit for choices we ourselves cannot always see ourselves. (not that it is our place to judge a Pope in the first place)

Pope Paul VI on Dissent from Vatican II

Pope Paul VI on Dissent from Vatican II with Michael Lofton – YouTube

Reason and Theology has been coming out with some Great! Defending Vatican II from people like Dr. Taylor Marshall and others who unfortunately do not give the topic a very fair nor insightful commentary.

Yes – you cannot dissent! No there is not heresy. Micheal Lofthon is an expert in topics of magisterium authority and when it can error or not. He goes into distinctions and insightful commentary on the subject that others like Dr. Taylor Marshall fail to even cover.